


Socrates in the caves

by HushBugger



Category: Dialogues - Plato, Undertale (Video Game)
Genre: Alternate Universe - Banishment from Athens, Aporia - Freeform, Gen
Language: English
Status: In-Progress
Published: 2017-08-14
Updated: 2017-10-08
Packaged: 2018-12-15 10:54:37
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 4
Words: 1,442
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/11804571
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/HushBugger/pseuds/HushBugger
Summary: What if Socrates fell into the underground?





	1. Flowey

**Flowey**  
What’s LV stand for? Why, LOVE, of course! You want some LOVE, don’t you?  


**Socrates**  
No, I would not say I do.  


**Flowey**  
You don’t?  


**Socrates**  
I do not. If, as you say, that blue heart is my soul, is it then dissevered from my body?  


**Flowey**  
Yes, I suppose. But I don’t see…  


**Socrates**  
And would you not say that love is one of the bodily pleasures, like eating and drinking?  


**Flowey**  
Yes, but…  


**Socrates**  
And that, as a philosopher, I should only be concerned with the acquirement of knowledge?  


**Flowey**  
I suppose so.  


**Socrates**  
Would you also agree that knowledge is a matter of the soul, and love a matter of the body?  


**Flowey**  
Sure.  


**Socrates**  
Then should I not prefer to have my soul avoid love, and instead have my soul only be concerned with learning?  


**Flowey**  
You know what? Have fun. I’m outta here.  



	2. Toriel

**Socrates**  
This plaque reads “Only the fearless may proceed. Brave ones, foolish ones. Both walk not the middle road.” You pressed only the buttons that were off the middle path. Does that mean, then, that you consider brave people to be fearless?  


**Toriel**  
Yes, that is what the puzzle means.  


**Socrates**  
It is indeed what the puzzle means, but the intention of my question was to ask whether you believe so yourself.  


**Toriel**  
I do.  


**Socrates**  
What, then, do you say of an animal that endangers itself because it lacks knowledge and therefore doesn’t have fear? Would such an animal be brave?  


**Toriel**  
No, that is just foolish.  


**Socrates**  
And a soldier that charges into battle in spite of his fear? Is such a man courageous?  


**Toriel**  
Yes, he is.  


**Socrates**  
Then it is possible to be brave without being fearless, and to be fearless without being brave, so courage is not the same as fearlessness.  


**Toriel**  
You are right. I cannot readily explain what it means to be brave. However, this is just a puzzle. It is not meant to be taken so seriously. You are a very unusual man.  



	3. Papyrus

**Papyrus**  
Really though! That human! Do I know that person?  


**Sans**  
Do you not know who you know?  


**Papyrus**  
Of course I know who I know! I wanted to know if you know I know who I know as much as I know I know who I know! You know?  


**Socrates**  
But how do you truly know you know you know who you know?  


**Papyrus**  
What?  


**Socrates**  
You claim to have knowledge about knowing who you know. How can you be certain of that knowledge?  


**Papyrus**  
I should know, shouldn’t I?  


**Socrates**  
Let us see. Do you believe that you are aware of which things you know?  


**Papyrus**  
Of course! I know what I know because I know.  


**Socrates**  
But what of false beliefs? Are they too a kind of knowledge?  


**Papyrus**  
Hmmm. Well, if they’re not true, then I don’t know them. I just think I know them.  


**Socrates**  
Then you do not know which things you know, because the belief in knowing some of them is false.  


**Papyrus**  
But I don’t actually know the things I think I know but don’t know, don’t I?  


**Socrates**  
Indeed.  


**Papyrus**  
Aha! So if I don’t know the things I think I know but don’t know, then I do know I know all the things I do know!  


**Socrates**  
It is as you say that you should know about all your true beliefs. In that same way, a good playwright should know what makes a good play, and a cook should know whether a meal is good.  


**Papyrus**  
That’s true.  


**Socrates**  
Would you agree that is how they can be said to know plays, and to know meals?  


**Papyrus**  
Yes.  


**Socrates**  
And would a playwright who knows plays recognize a bad play, or a cook who knows food recognize a bad meal?  


**Papyrus**  
Ah! You’re saying that to know what I know I need to know what I do not know, not just what I do know!  


**Socrates**  
That is it exactly. To be a good playwright requires to be able to distinguish between good plays and bad plays. And a good cook should know the difference between good meals and bad meals. And to be wise, one needs to tell apart good beliefs and bad beliefs. One needs to know what one does not know as much as what one does know.  


**Papyrus**  
Yes! But! Now that we know how to know whether we know what we know, we still don’t know whether you can solve this puzzle!  


* * *

**Sans**  
Hey, thanks. I think my brother likes having someone to talk to.  



	4. Undyne

**Undyne**  
That’s right, human! Your continued existence is a crime! Your life is all that stands between us and our freedom!  


**Socrates**  
It is interesting that you should say my existence breaks the law. Do you believe I should obey the law?  


**Undyne**  
Of course! That’s what the law is for!  


**Socrates**  
But different places have different laws. The laws here are not the laws in Athens, and the laws in Athens are not the laws in Thessaly.  


**Undyne**  
I am just going to come down from this rock, so we can stop shouting! Stay where you are!  


**Socrates**  
I would never flee an attempt to find the truth. Now, when there is a different law for each place, and not all laws can be followed, how ought we to decide which law to follow?  


**Undyne**  
That’s simple. The law of where you are.  


**Socrates**  
But why, my dear Undyne, should we follow that law? Should we also do whatever any person tells us to do? How should we decide which people to obey?  


**Undyne**  
I guess you should listen to your parents, or your boss.  


**Socrates**  
And why should one obey one’s parents?  


**Undyne**  
Because they take care of you? I mean, they know best.  


**Socrates**  
Very well. Now, you say that the law of the land where you are should be followed. Does the same go for people? Is it for the same reason that you should obey the rules of a house you visit?  


**Undyne**  
Hey! We’re not fighting! Papyrus told me humans were talkative. I see now what he meant by that!  


I’ll throw you a spear. Defend yourself!  


**Socrates**  
Of course. Now, please answer me, for I would like to find the truth. Should you obey the law for the same reason you should obey the master of the house when you are a guest?  


**Undyne**  
Woah! Where did you learn to block like that?  


**Socrates**  
At the battle of Delium, after I lost my shield. Now, by the dog, tell me, dear Undyne, do you believe-  


**Undyne**  
Okay, okay! Yeah, you should listen if you’re a guest. Otherwise it’s just rude, and you shouldn’t have visited in the first place. Now, block this!  


**Socrates**  
Then do you believe that you should obey those people who care for you in return, and that you should obey the people you visit, because you chose to accept their hospitality?  


**Undyne**  
Yeah.  


**Socrates**  
And is it by the same principles that you should obey the law?  


**Undyne**  
Ngahh! Yeah, what’s your point?  


**Socrates**  
My point, Undyne, is this. When I lived in Athens, I obeyed the law of Athens. Athens was the state where I was born, and the state where I was educated. The state I fought for, and the state where I made my home. I could have left had I wanted to, and I did not, so when the state decided I was to be punished I accepted that, and did not fight it. Likewise, when the punishment of banishment was settled upon, I left the city, as required.  


I decided to travel to Lacedaemon, because I have heard their government is good, and had I arrived there, I would have followed its law, even when inconvenient. I made the decision to make my new home there, so I should follow it, even if I did not like it.  


But on my trek there, over the mountain, I fell into the underground. I did not choose to visit this place, and neither can I leave, so I did not accept its laws. I am trying to leave, and the underground never provided me with anything, so I have no obligation to obey its rule.  


**Undyne**  
Okay! Whatever! What are you trying to do?  


**Socrates**  
I am merely explaining that even if my existence is a crime, that does not compel me to end it, because it is not necessary for me to follow the laws of the underground.  


**Undyne**  
Oh my god! Shut up! Just die already!  



End file.
